Thanks for hanging! You talked at me for 3 hours, and the second I shared something about my own life you dissociated, went on your phone, interrupted me, or somehow immediately made it about you.
BIG SIGH. I can already hear the comments coming about conversation styles (I converse through sharing stories! not by asking questions!), adhd and attention issues and distractibility, blah blah blah, and let me just get ahead of them real quick: as someone who has adhd and who relates to people through the sharing of stories and who has to put A LOT of energy and focus into actively listening, literally just stop. don't type the thing you're about to type. instead, get used to saying things like, "wait I don't think I caught all that, what happened next?" and "shit I just got distracted, i'm sorry, could you say that last part again?", get a fidget toy to fiddle with if it helps you listen, get attuned to whether, when it's your turn, you're actually telling a story or just verbally processing/vomiting up words for dozens of minutes at a time, and get it the fuck together. literally do anything but let yourself be a shit conversationalist and friend. in this economy? no.
THANK YOU! I had thought of the ADHD thing a bit, because I have some people in my life who are self-aware of the fact that the dopamine imbalance/impulsivity issues/distractedness make them prone to interrupting or unable to focus.
But I keep running into people like this (that I write about in the piece) that it seems like a majority of young people today, and not to sound like a boomer, but I really think it's TikTok, Instagram, TV. We can't possibly all have ADHD. And my friends who do have something like ADHD, they do exactly what you do -- they say, "sorry, I have a really bad interrupting habit because of my ADHD, stop me if I'm interrupting or cutting you off."
I also don't really get the conversational style thing. I suppose, to each their own, but it feels so weirdly lonely and isolating to me to have a conversation that's just a back-and-forth of unrelated personal anecdotes and sharing things that have nothing to do with the conversation or what the person beforehand said.
Like, if I wanted to spit out a pre-recorded script in my head of thoughts, I would just stay home and talk to a wall. The interesting thing about socializing is shifting your thoughts and reaching new conclusions and feelings based upon the human being in front of you and what they'e saying too.
I think the conversational style i'm referencing is about sharing *related* stories with the outcome of increasing understanding and feelings of validation/closeness between one another. definitely best when followed up with questions about the other person's unique experience! but I think a lot of people end up doing exactly what you describe - they just share completely unrelated shit and then don't even bother to ask follow-up questions after they've said their piece. it's maddening! I always feel so deflated and invisible after those interactions, like nothing came from it. no shift in thoughts or emotions. no joy of basic human connection.
"But I think interviewing was my way of being generous, and it's disappointing to expect that in return and not get it." -- yes, this gets out how I am feeling. people tell me they feel really seen and understood by me, which i love, and i don't do it transactionally, but then it does suck after several months of feeling like very few convos ive had were even or made me feel at least a little bit heard/seen. i agree about the sorting, writing this and getting feedback made me realize i can and should focus more on the people who actually listen and care.
Hey love this piece! I GET you ~ and I'm from an earlier generation that did not have all the media and tiktok brain fry. I think (unfortunately) there is a LOT within human nature that wants to just zone out and wait for their turn to talk about themselves. And yet we must, as you suggest, work against that ~ active listening etc.
I too, have been super curious about why others are NOT curious! A big red flag for me, when someone can't pay attention to me with respect and ask a few follow up questions. Like you say, I do NOT have a freakishly good memory, I'm simply paying attention to what you are sharing with me! (I've called myself an 'intimacy athlete' because of my willingness to find out Who You Are!)
... and maybe not coincidentally, I had a very lonely childhood too. I found kids around me didn't want to get to know me at 'that level' ... or something! I've not figured it out - I just MOVED ON to folks who were interested in listening and being solid.
hit me up if you want to be friends ~ like the comment from nicole- maybe you need better friends!!
hi sally, thanks for the validation! it's nice to know some of this is generational and tech-related, which means maybe it can be overcome. but i do meet people who are 50+ that are guilty of this bad conversational behavior too. "intimacy athlete" is such a good term, i am really good at social intimacy most of the time. i really do wonder about how people can get through a conversation and talk the entire time and feel totally fine about that? like, they walk away and spoke 85% of the time and learned nothing about the other person with them, do they not care at all? ill dm you!
I think people are used to the dynamics we initially deliver and then perpetuate. Like you being isolated in school and becoming very observant probs plays into your comms with your friends and they’re like, “Oh cool, Femcel will listen to me yap for hours and doesn’t need the same in return.” Probs a boundary/communicating your needs thing.
that's a good point. i have wondered how much of this dynamic can be my fault. sometimes i try to "speak up" by just jumping into something i want to share, and get hit with silence. sometimes i directly speak up by saying "can you respond to what i said or ask me a question" and get mixed replies. i've realized recently that i think some people don't care to listen or actually hear what i am saying because on the flip side, they do not care to be heard or listened to. all they care about is "getting their talk in" so to speak, and so they don't actually value what people say or ask after, so they can't understand why im bothered by a lack of a real response or getting interrupted
Urgh that’s so shit - stating what you want and people being like ummm. Sometimes I think people just want to narrate their lives to an audience like Carrie Bradshaw (or literally like day in the life vlogs). But not everyone is like that so might be time to expand the friendship circle. Good luck with it all chica
Hi, I’m an internet lurker. I don’t leave comments. But I absolutely need to thank you for this article.
I’m a 27 year old woman from Southern California. I also have about 700+ diary entries in my Notes app over years of daily journaling, and what you wrote here can be found in my own internal monologue, written in almost the exact same way. I mention Southern California because I wonder if the universal narcissism is stronger here, in this portion of the world, where so many people are trying to be someone special. Regardless, I want to affirm you. People ARE like this. SO many people are like this. Many more people are like this than AREN’T like this, at least in my experience living here, and attending college here too.
Brushing this off with “just get better friends” is like… yeah, of course that’s the goal, but there’s also some sort of societal psychosis going on that means that the “better friends” are literally <10% of the people in our age group. It’s not so simple. Maybe it’ll be simpler when we’re older and more of our cohort has matured, but for now we have a situation where the vast majority of young people are in end stage screen addiction and have been ushered into this narcissism for a variety of reasons. I won’t make a listicle of those reasons in your comments box, I leave that to you.
I see you. I hear you. I feel sorry for you, and myself, that this is the situation we mostly have to endure in order to have regular social interaction. Just know you aren’t the only one out there patiently sitting through people taking advantage of you.
And as soon as we find and identify the kindred spirits to us in real life, we owe it to ourselves to work hard on fostering those friendships instead of letting the narcs do the usual heavy lifting in the planning and coordinating department (which of course to them is not heavy lifting, because they find it stunningly simple to demand people’s time, energy, and attention).
I don’t know if this comment lost the plot and dissolved into not making sense. Regardless, thank you, you are seen, you are felt, and you are definitely heard by this anonymous girl.
hi, i think you and i are the same strain of neurotic lol. i am a chronic internet lurker, that is until i made this account. I also chronically diary and notes app rant because sometimes, oftentimes, there is literally nowhere else to write or feel all my thoughts and feelings. that's sort of what my substack is -- all the rants and ideas no one will listen to, but somehow they find their way to the right audience, fortunately.
i am born and raised in LA and went to college here, so maybe it is just an LA/SoCal thing. i think everyone here is a little infected with the hollywood/influencer thing, even the ones who don't work or want to work in that industry. thank you so much for the affirmation/validation. sometimes i feel crazy. but mostly i just feel really alone and isolated when it feels like every conversation is like this, and also when i am the only one who cares or notices. like i wonder if maybe everyone else is just fine having these hollow conversations where they say something and no one replies or cares or asks a question? they truly just seem satisfy to talk at someone and don't require a real response? is something wrong with me?
there IS PSYCHOSIS! thank you for validating that. it's hard w social media and tv now. so much of our audio-visual-social experience is mediated by stuff which actually requires very little care, attention, focus, curiosity. i don't know what people think through all of this. it seems like more and more people are just talking to chatgpt all day, which i find unbelievably eerie and bleak. like, instead of talking to friends, we're talking to this robot which has become better at what humans should do -- say "wow that's sounds really hard, how are you handling it?" people need validation but accept it in this really minimal shred form from a robot. idk it makes me feel insane and deeply sad to think about.
i agree about working at those friendships that are worth it. i have noticed, through the process of writing this, that i have some friends who are really great listeners and aren't super self-absorbed and i will just focus on hanging out with them more.
I can’t say I’m surprised you’re also local here, it’s just… how it is here. People blame the transplants but it’s the locals too. It’s just the culture. The industry seeps into every facet of life. Even just stepping outside - most people around you are beautiful. The comparison game is not played so acutely in other places. Even the strongest willed people would find it hard to not be self conscious here, turn more inward, and become more superficial. And yet I love it and will never leave blah blah blah. Just have to work extra hard to cultivate your inner circle.
Yes to the chatGPT psychosis. I’ll never understand it, because it quite literally is “minimal shred from a robot.” It doesn’t comfort me, not that I’ve ever really fully tried it. But in my sparse dealings with chat it mostly just makes me feel more alone. I’d prefer shitty human feedback than in-depth robot feedback any day. But you’re right, it’s on tap instantly, just like everything else on the internet is on tap, and we’ve got a collective issue with impatience in this world.
It’s ironically hard to hang out with the good friends. The narcs do a lot of heavy lifting in scheduling things, and their yapping lets us mostly turn our own brains off and charge our social meter without having to worry about “entertaining.” More fulfilling relationships require harder work. This is something I’ve been unraveling myself, because as much as I hate to admit it, I get a lot of benefit from my shittier friends in managing my social life.
I'm usually on the other side of this conversation. I'm the friend who naturally interrupts, makes it about herself and brings up random stuff I'm interested in.
I agree with you, TikTok/reels/youtube shorts have definitely been affecting the way people see conversations and connections, they tap out more now for sure. But I also think there's more to it. Liquid modernity makes people think everyone is replaceable, that the world will end tomorrow and that everything that matters is how much an individual person can take from the world and not offer to the world. There's also the effect of late capitalism isolation. Most people nowadays are stunted socially (me included) due to depression, the covid era and overworking. We had less time to practice these more subtle social skills like asking interesting questions, making references to the past, having the decency to remember the names of friends, dogs, ex boyfriends etc.
In my case, I was raised mormon, my family is mostly neurodivergent and I had a decade long depressive "phase". So lately I've been attempting to make more questions and referencing what people have said in the past. Also I learned that people really like when you say "I'm proud of you", "you're such a cool person", "you're better than me" or any other compliment. The funny part is that it doesn't even matter who you are to that person. You can be a total stranger saying "you're so cool" and the person in front of you will melt like butter haha.
hi hanna, i really enjoyed this reflection. i love hearing people's internal monologue and this kind of thing. i totally agree that these are maybe more subtle, higher level social skills. i think about how younger kids interact, like ages 5-8, they just kind of say whatever they want to each other and make random jokes and talk at each other, but as people get older there should be more of that emotional response, understanding, curiosity, presence, awareness of what the other person is saying, and recall of other things they've said and done. but we're not developing that stuff as much now because of phones, and i think as you get at, a lot of it comes from our families. a lot of parents are so over-worked now that they don't really interact with their kids, everyone just ignores each other, and then no one learns how to talk and listen. your advice of just giving a nice, affirming compliment is great. sometimes that's all i want or need to feel like a person was listening to me! that is great advice!
Someone told me I was one the the coolest people she knew a few years ago and I'm still riding that high 😂 no one has ever called me "cool"! Still not over it
As a profoundly deaf person I can tell you this. My simple observation is that the majority of "hearing" people are profoundly deaf. Perhaps if they lose their hearing they might realise this:
Think. God gave us only one tongue and two ears. And then... an old song. Count your blessings... one by one
Your last essay is great but I need to ask you this. I get all that why it's ridiculous to push everyone towards the trade. But what did you really really want to say?
The art of conversation is not known as well as we'd like. I know I still have much I can learn.
I think when people share a common experience in a conversation, they think they're saying "Hey, you're not alone, I experienced something similar." But really, they're saying, "I need to feel included in this conversation so here's my point of view." Or "I need to meet my emotional needs first by being heard." Yes, everyone has emotional needs, but part of being a good friend is caring about your friend (Captain Obvious alert!), and that includes listening.
When you are present with someone, affirming what they've said, asking follow-up questions, repeating something to make sure you understand them, that shows you care. It should build a platform of reciprocity where conversations recharge both friends.
Also a key question: "Would you like advice or would you like to be heard?" For me, I know I dislike unsolicited advice. People should meet their friends where they are at. That shows friends care in terms of conversation.
The advice of asking "Do you want advice or validation or xyz?" is great. I think maybe some people don't know how to respond, so they just don't. I think sometimes people think sharing a related story about themselves is a form of validation, but sometimes people take it in such an extreme that it's hardly related. I think there's a healthy balance and people being more aware and asking questions is def part of it.
I'm a Millennial who has experienced this phenomenon, too, especially in my 20s, and it seems like the onus is always on the good listener/question-asker to share more about themselves unprompted rather than the interrupter/monologuer to ask more thoughtful questions.
I've tried to disclose more, or share more stories because that's how they ~relate~, and I get that same glazed-over look, as though I'm speaking a foreign language. One excuse I've gotten is that they don't ask questions because they don't want to be nosy, and they believe if others wanted to share something, they would do so unprompted. Other excuses include that they've been burned in the past for asking questions, they don't know what questions to ask because they can't relate, or they think asking questions would be pointless because I seem to have my life figured out or because whatever I shared is in the past, so a follow-up like, "How did x thing turn out?" or, "How did you feel after y happened?" doesn't cross their mind.
I'm now in my early 30s, and I've found that orienting myself to communities where people explicitly want to cultivate better friendships and work on themselves to make that happen or where curiosity is a pre-requisite/group norm helped me find more like-minded folks. I also used to struggle socially, and took that same anthropologist approach to understand relationships, making it to my goal to learn active listening skills and put myself in situations where I'd use them (volunteering as a crisis counselor being one of them), even if it didn't come naturally to me. I also learned that asking too many questions felt like an interrogation for the other person after a mentor shared that observation, so I've been more strategic with questions.
I hope you find your people because I absolutely would've loved having more friends like you in my young adulthood, and I think you sharing these frustrations will enable others who want this reciprocity to find you.
Profound, multiply expert-diagnosed ADHD here. I'm GenX and got my diagnosis and meds at around age 40.
Throughout my life, starting at least in early childhood, I've been interested, engaged, and compelled to *listen* to people's stories in just the way you described. It's apparently baked-in and fundamental to my lifelong conversation with the world.
Resolved: This strongly attracts people who just want to talk at you about themselves.
It can also make you a great interviewer in the John McPhee regard, but will stupidly fuck up your ability to discern between friends or potential friends, and people who are good at imitating friends in order to prop up their personality disorders.
"people who are good at imitating friends in order to prop up their personality disorders" -- not sure if this was meant to be funny but i LAUGHED. anyway yeah so true, i am realizing increasingly there are friends who barely know anything about me but i know their deepest depths and they don't really see a problem with that or notice. it's like im a validation/listening robot and they want to just turn me off when it's convenient and on when it's convenient. Love the john mcphee reference.
A few years ago I heard someoen ask "Are you listening, or are you just waiting for your turn to talk" and that has stuck with me all these years.
Totally agree with everything you wrote.
It feels like people use IRL as a long form of social, where instead of posting that 30 second tiktok and swiping (do people swipe? idk im not on socials lol) - they rant for 30 minutes and then "swipe" to whatever else pops up in their head.
Some part of me also thinks that none of these people know what actually having a friend is like. They have never moved past the fluff bs conversations into the really deep shit. So thats all they know.
the swipe analogy is great, totally on the ball. yeah exactly, the thing about a conversation, a good one anyway, is that there is sort of an uncontrollable flow to it. this is a really good thing. but today's media environment is not about the slow flow of unfolding an idea, a feeling, a joke. it's just swiping manically between sites and videos all showing the biggest joke, punchline, hit, provocative image or idea or line. it promotes social and intellectual ADD essentially. so in real life people just zone out when something no longer holds their interest, and as you say, mentally/emotionally swipe out. im also with you on the deep thing -- i think some of the poor listening skills has to do with an issue with true social intimacy and vulnerability.
I think about these topics all the time!!! I'm middle-aged and even my peers are terrible about asking follow-up questions (or even questions in general) in conversation. Being even just the tiniest bit observant or interested in people let's you learn so much about friends/co-workers/etc.
yes it's sooo crazy bc i feel like an fbi/cia agent, people tell me stuff all the time that they've barely told anyone, but it's literally just because i make space in the convo for them. its annoying to not get it in return for sure.
I come from a similar background and run into this frequently. People used to drain me when they realized i actually listened, but I got good at tactics to stop the emotional vampires.
And as for them not paying attention, my trick is to ALWAYS be ready to just stop talking mid sentence and walk off. I keep every sentence short and to the point and i watch closely.
omg walking off is a POWER MOVE. i have been in some truly horrendous convos where i have wanted to do that. all of these comments have made me feel more empowered to tell people when they're being egregious.
Maybe try pulling out your phone and scrolling if walking off seems too large of a first step. But it hasn't ever caused any problems for me. Probably because these types of people are so ADHD and self absorbed, they really don't notice nor care
LOLOL i know this is serious but it made me laugh. i actually have noticed that. just like they dont listen or hear you, they just wanna talk to get their talk in, they don't rly care to be heard or understood. in fact a lot of these people get annoyed when i try to offer a comment or ask a question, they basically want a numbed out wall to talk to, and they're numbed out walls themselves, so.
Hard relate. I’m GenX, neurodivergent and an only child and I pursued much the same strategy as you did to counteract loneliness…becoming an excellent listener, asking questions, I even read all of Miss Manners’ books (which are excellent and funny) to work on my social skills. And I’ve gotten similar results with people to yours…it’s not restricted to Millennials and younger. Just divorced my boomer husband of 20 years who constantly interrupted me, talked over me, changed the subject to talk about himself and actually asked me to boil my own conversational input down to “bullet points” because he “didn’t need to know all that”. He’s a screen addict, but we both grew up before the internet and didn’t have smartphones until we were in our 30s and 40s, so it’s not like social media “caused” this for him. I’ve managed to raise an awesome kid who has great social skills and I will say that teaching/modeling that to kids is hard work that a lot of parents don’t want to do, or are too busy to do because they’re working 3 jobs to make ends meet. There are lazy parents AND we live in a society that basically gives parents zero social support. I wouldn’t have been able to parent the way I wanted to without being a SAHM, (my ex became less and less interested in parenting or even providing financially for kiddo) but it made me vulnerable to abuse and exploitation in the home. People’s lack of basic social skills today is a complex and multifaceted problem that unfortunately is talked about by blaming it on tech, parents (which really is blaming mothers), pathologizing neurodivergence, blah blah as a single source of the problem. It’s all of the things.
omg your description of a horrible boomer man is so terribly on point. i have a family member just like that -- he talks and talks for ages and loves to mansplain everything to you to death, then turns around and says women are "more verbal" and "chatter" more than men, which is statistically proven to not be true. i remember bringing up the fact that men love nothing more than talking, look at any business meeting that lasts two hours when it could have been an email, or men's obsession with giving speeches, going into politics, making podcasts. he gave me this snarky smile and said something about how that's not the same as women blathering on or whatever. meanwhile EVERY conversation I have ever had with him, he interrupts constantly, finds one thing you've said and then uses it to rant at you about something totally unrelated.
sorry, i think (ironically) your comment set me off on my own rant hahahaha. anyway, i am SO GLAD you left his ass! i wish more men understood they'd be less lonely if they worked on their conversational and listening skills. screen addiction is also real and a major inhibitor for good convo. there's no conversation that will give a person the same easy/cheap dopamine as a phone, but it ultimately leads to isolation and depression.
good for you for teaching your kid that stuff, seriously. i used to teach and you can really, really tell the difference between the kids spending quality time with their families and friends, drawing, reading books in a loving household versus those shunted off to a room with an ipad while everyone in the house ignores each other. it's all of the things for sure. i hope my generation (im 25) is able to look at the mistakes of the last 15 years and raise our kids better.
I have a lot of younger friends (40 and under) and I have a lot of respect for younger millennials and GenZ…your generation is definitely learning from the mistakes of older generations and has so much more kindness and compassion for people. There’s less toxic positivity and pathological individualism, and a sense of responsibility for each other. This is what is needed in our society and I’ll do whatever I can to support it.
“ It’s just a merry-go-round of people waiting for their turn to talk, getting their airtime, then retreating back into their own self-absorption or dissociation from the group.” such a specific and relatable experience and so well put
thank you! I thought I was crazy for noticing this all the time, but it makes me feel at times like hanging out is so pointless. It doesn't happen all the time ofc, but sometimes I am in a group and I'm like why are we here together if we're just not going to respond to one another?
BIG SIGH. I can already hear the comments coming about conversation styles (I converse through sharing stories! not by asking questions!), adhd and attention issues and distractibility, blah blah blah, and let me just get ahead of them real quick: as someone who has adhd and who relates to people through the sharing of stories and who has to put A LOT of energy and focus into actively listening, literally just stop. don't type the thing you're about to type. instead, get used to saying things like, "wait I don't think I caught all that, what happened next?" and "shit I just got distracted, i'm sorry, could you say that last part again?", get a fidget toy to fiddle with if it helps you listen, get attuned to whether, when it's your turn, you're actually telling a story or just verbally processing/vomiting up words for dozens of minutes at a time, and get it the fuck together. literally do anything but let yourself be a shit conversationalist and friend. in this economy? no.
THANK YOU! I had thought of the ADHD thing a bit, because I have some people in my life who are self-aware of the fact that the dopamine imbalance/impulsivity issues/distractedness make them prone to interrupting or unable to focus.
But I keep running into people like this (that I write about in the piece) that it seems like a majority of young people today, and not to sound like a boomer, but I really think it's TikTok, Instagram, TV. We can't possibly all have ADHD. And my friends who do have something like ADHD, they do exactly what you do -- they say, "sorry, I have a really bad interrupting habit because of my ADHD, stop me if I'm interrupting or cutting you off."
I also don't really get the conversational style thing. I suppose, to each their own, but it feels so weirdly lonely and isolating to me to have a conversation that's just a back-and-forth of unrelated personal anecdotes and sharing things that have nothing to do with the conversation or what the person beforehand said.
Like, if I wanted to spit out a pre-recorded script in my head of thoughts, I would just stay home and talk to a wall. The interesting thing about socializing is shifting your thoughts and reaching new conclusions and feelings based upon the human being in front of you and what they'e saying too.
I think the conversational style i'm referencing is about sharing *related* stories with the outcome of increasing understanding and feelings of validation/closeness between one another. definitely best when followed up with questions about the other person's unique experience! but I think a lot of people end up doing exactly what you describe - they just share completely unrelated shit and then don't even bother to ask follow-up questions after they've said their piece. it's maddening! I always feel so deflated and invisible after those interactions, like nothing came from it. no shift in thoughts or emotions. no joy of basic human connection.
Babe, you need better friends.
"But I think interviewing was my way of being generous, and it's disappointing to expect that in return and not get it." -- yes, this gets out how I am feeling. people tell me they feel really seen and understood by me, which i love, and i don't do it transactionally, but then it does suck after several months of feeling like very few convos ive had were even or made me feel at least a little bit heard/seen. i agree about the sorting, writing this and getting feedback made me realize i can and should focus more on the people who actually listen and care.
Hey love this piece! I GET you ~ and I'm from an earlier generation that did not have all the media and tiktok brain fry. I think (unfortunately) there is a LOT within human nature that wants to just zone out and wait for their turn to talk about themselves. And yet we must, as you suggest, work against that ~ active listening etc.
I too, have been super curious about why others are NOT curious! A big red flag for me, when someone can't pay attention to me with respect and ask a few follow up questions. Like you say, I do NOT have a freakishly good memory, I'm simply paying attention to what you are sharing with me! (I've called myself an 'intimacy athlete' because of my willingness to find out Who You Are!)
... and maybe not coincidentally, I had a very lonely childhood too. I found kids around me didn't want to get to know me at 'that level' ... or something! I've not figured it out - I just MOVED ON to folks who were interested in listening and being solid.
hit me up if you want to be friends ~ like the comment from nicole- maybe you need better friends!!
big love ~ sally
hi sally, thanks for the validation! it's nice to know some of this is generational and tech-related, which means maybe it can be overcome. but i do meet people who are 50+ that are guilty of this bad conversational behavior too. "intimacy athlete" is such a good term, i am really good at social intimacy most of the time. i really do wonder about how people can get through a conversation and talk the entire time and feel totally fine about that? like, they walk away and spoke 85% of the time and learned nothing about the other person with them, do they not care at all? ill dm you!
I think people are used to the dynamics we initially deliver and then perpetuate. Like you being isolated in school and becoming very observant probs plays into your comms with your friends and they’re like, “Oh cool, Femcel will listen to me yap for hours and doesn’t need the same in return.” Probs a boundary/communicating your needs thing.
that's a good point. i have wondered how much of this dynamic can be my fault. sometimes i try to "speak up" by just jumping into something i want to share, and get hit with silence. sometimes i directly speak up by saying "can you respond to what i said or ask me a question" and get mixed replies. i've realized recently that i think some people don't care to listen or actually hear what i am saying because on the flip side, they do not care to be heard or listened to. all they care about is "getting their talk in" so to speak, and so they don't actually value what people say or ask after, so they can't understand why im bothered by a lack of a real response or getting interrupted
Urgh that’s so shit - stating what you want and people being like ummm. Sometimes I think people just want to narrate their lives to an audience like Carrie Bradshaw (or literally like day in the life vlogs). But not everyone is like that so might be time to expand the friendship circle. Good luck with it all chica
Hi, I’m an internet lurker. I don’t leave comments. But I absolutely need to thank you for this article.
I’m a 27 year old woman from Southern California. I also have about 700+ diary entries in my Notes app over years of daily journaling, and what you wrote here can be found in my own internal monologue, written in almost the exact same way. I mention Southern California because I wonder if the universal narcissism is stronger here, in this portion of the world, where so many people are trying to be someone special. Regardless, I want to affirm you. People ARE like this. SO many people are like this. Many more people are like this than AREN’T like this, at least in my experience living here, and attending college here too.
Brushing this off with “just get better friends” is like… yeah, of course that’s the goal, but there’s also some sort of societal psychosis going on that means that the “better friends” are literally <10% of the people in our age group. It’s not so simple. Maybe it’ll be simpler when we’re older and more of our cohort has matured, but for now we have a situation where the vast majority of young people are in end stage screen addiction and have been ushered into this narcissism for a variety of reasons. I won’t make a listicle of those reasons in your comments box, I leave that to you.
I see you. I hear you. I feel sorry for you, and myself, that this is the situation we mostly have to endure in order to have regular social interaction. Just know you aren’t the only one out there patiently sitting through people taking advantage of you.
And as soon as we find and identify the kindred spirits to us in real life, we owe it to ourselves to work hard on fostering those friendships instead of letting the narcs do the usual heavy lifting in the planning and coordinating department (which of course to them is not heavy lifting, because they find it stunningly simple to demand people’s time, energy, and attention).
I don’t know if this comment lost the plot and dissolved into not making sense. Regardless, thank you, you are seen, you are felt, and you are definitely heard by this anonymous girl.
hi, i think you and i are the same strain of neurotic lol. i am a chronic internet lurker, that is until i made this account. I also chronically diary and notes app rant because sometimes, oftentimes, there is literally nowhere else to write or feel all my thoughts and feelings. that's sort of what my substack is -- all the rants and ideas no one will listen to, but somehow they find their way to the right audience, fortunately.
i am born and raised in LA and went to college here, so maybe it is just an LA/SoCal thing. i think everyone here is a little infected with the hollywood/influencer thing, even the ones who don't work or want to work in that industry. thank you so much for the affirmation/validation. sometimes i feel crazy. but mostly i just feel really alone and isolated when it feels like every conversation is like this, and also when i am the only one who cares or notices. like i wonder if maybe everyone else is just fine having these hollow conversations where they say something and no one replies or cares or asks a question? they truly just seem satisfy to talk at someone and don't require a real response? is something wrong with me?
there IS PSYCHOSIS! thank you for validating that. it's hard w social media and tv now. so much of our audio-visual-social experience is mediated by stuff which actually requires very little care, attention, focus, curiosity. i don't know what people think through all of this. it seems like more and more people are just talking to chatgpt all day, which i find unbelievably eerie and bleak. like, instead of talking to friends, we're talking to this robot which has become better at what humans should do -- say "wow that's sounds really hard, how are you handling it?" people need validation but accept it in this really minimal shred form from a robot. idk it makes me feel insane and deeply sad to think about.
i agree about working at those friendships that are worth it. i have noticed, through the process of writing this, that i have some friends who are really great listeners and aren't super self-absorbed and i will just focus on hanging out with them more.
We are definitely the same strain of neurotic. :)
I can’t say I’m surprised you’re also local here, it’s just… how it is here. People blame the transplants but it’s the locals too. It’s just the culture. The industry seeps into every facet of life. Even just stepping outside - most people around you are beautiful. The comparison game is not played so acutely in other places. Even the strongest willed people would find it hard to not be self conscious here, turn more inward, and become more superficial. And yet I love it and will never leave blah blah blah. Just have to work extra hard to cultivate your inner circle.
Yes to the chatGPT psychosis. I’ll never understand it, because it quite literally is “minimal shred from a robot.” It doesn’t comfort me, not that I’ve ever really fully tried it. But in my sparse dealings with chat it mostly just makes me feel more alone. I’d prefer shitty human feedback than in-depth robot feedback any day. But you’re right, it’s on tap instantly, just like everything else on the internet is on tap, and we’ve got a collective issue with impatience in this world.
It’s ironically hard to hang out with the good friends. The narcs do a lot of heavy lifting in scheduling things, and their yapping lets us mostly turn our own brains off and charge our social meter without having to worry about “entertaining.” More fulfilling relationships require harder work. This is something I’ve been unraveling myself, because as much as I hate to admit it, I get a lot of benefit from my shittier friends in managing my social life.
I'm usually on the other side of this conversation. I'm the friend who naturally interrupts, makes it about herself and brings up random stuff I'm interested in.
I agree with you, TikTok/reels/youtube shorts have definitely been affecting the way people see conversations and connections, they tap out more now for sure. But I also think there's more to it. Liquid modernity makes people think everyone is replaceable, that the world will end tomorrow and that everything that matters is how much an individual person can take from the world and not offer to the world. There's also the effect of late capitalism isolation. Most people nowadays are stunted socially (me included) due to depression, the covid era and overworking. We had less time to practice these more subtle social skills like asking interesting questions, making references to the past, having the decency to remember the names of friends, dogs, ex boyfriends etc.
In my case, I was raised mormon, my family is mostly neurodivergent and I had a decade long depressive "phase". So lately I've been attempting to make more questions and referencing what people have said in the past. Also I learned that people really like when you say "I'm proud of you", "you're such a cool person", "you're better than me" or any other compliment. The funny part is that it doesn't even matter who you are to that person. You can be a total stranger saying "you're so cool" and the person in front of you will melt like butter haha.
hi hanna, i really enjoyed this reflection. i love hearing people's internal monologue and this kind of thing. i totally agree that these are maybe more subtle, higher level social skills. i think about how younger kids interact, like ages 5-8, they just kind of say whatever they want to each other and make random jokes and talk at each other, but as people get older there should be more of that emotional response, understanding, curiosity, presence, awareness of what the other person is saying, and recall of other things they've said and done. but we're not developing that stuff as much now because of phones, and i think as you get at, a lot of it comes from our families. a lot of parents are so over-worked now that they don't really interact with their kids, everyone just ignores each other, and then no one learns how to talk and listen. your advice of just giving a nice, affirming compliment is great. sometimes that's all i want or need to feel like a person was listening to me! that is great advice!
Someone told me I was one the the coolest people she knew a few years ago and I'm still riding that high 😂 no one has ever called me "cool"! Still not over it
As a profoundly deaf person I can tell you this. My simple observation is that the majority of "hearing" people are profoundly deaf. Perhaps if they lose their hearing they might realise this:
Think. God gave us only one tongue and two ears. And then... an old song. Count your blessings... one by one
Love never fails 🌾
Ps you're very wise for 24 Yo 👌
i loved this comment, thank you so much. that's a great insight. the thing about one mouth to speak and two ears to listen is very true!
Your last essay is great but I need to ask you this. I get all that why it's ridiculous to push everyone towards the trade. But what did you really really want to say?
Love never fails 🌾
The art of conversation is not known as well as we'd like. I know I still have much I can learn.
I think when people share a common experience in a conversation, they think they're saying "Hey, you're not alone, I experienced something similar." But really, they're saying, "I need to feel included in this conversation so here's my point of view." Or "I need to meet my emotional needs first by being heard." Yes, everyone has emotional needs, but part of being a good friend is caring about your friend (Captain Obvious alert!), and that includes listening.
When you are present with someone, affirming what they've said, asking follow-up questions, repeating something to make sure you understand them, that shows you care. It should build a platform of reciprocity where conversations recharge both friends.
Also a key question: "Would you like advice or would you like to be heard?" For me, I know I dislike unsolicited advice. People should meet their friends where they are at. That shows friends care in terms of conversation.
The advice of asking "Do you want advice or validation or xyz?" is great. I think maybe some people don't know how to respond, so they just don't. I think sometimes people think sharing a related story about themselves is a form of validation, but sometimes people take it in such an extreme that it's hardly related. I think there's a healthy balance and people being more aware and asking questions is def part of it.
I'm a Millennial who has experienced this phenomenon, too, especially in my 20s, and it seems like the onus is always on the good listener/question-asker to share more about themselves unprompted rather than the interrupter/monologuer to ask more thoughtful questions.
I've tried to disclose more, or share more stories because that's how they ~relate~, and I get that same glazed-over look, as though I'm speaking a foreign language. One excuse I've gotten is that they don't ask questions because they don't want to be nosy, and they believe if others wanted to share something, they would do so unprompted. Other excuses include that they've been burned in the past for asking questions, they don't know what questions to ask because they can't relate, or they think asking questions would be pointless because I seem to have my life figured out or because whatever I shared is in the past, so a follow-up like, "How did x thing turn out?" or, "How did you feel after y happened?" doesn't cross their mind.
I'm now in my early 30s, and I've found that orienting myself to communities where people explicitly want to cultivate better friendships and work on themselves to make that happen or where curiosity is a pre-requisite/group norm helped me find more like-minded folks. I also used to struggle socially, and took that same anthropologist approach to understand relationships, making it to my goal to learn active listening skills and put myself in situations where I'd use them (volunteering as a crisis counselor being one of them), even if it didn't come naturally to me. I also learned that asking too many questions felt like an interrogation for the other person after a mentor shared that observation, so I've been more strategic with questions.
I hope you find your people because I absolutely would've loved having more friends like you in my young adulthood, and I think you sharing these frustrations will enable others who want this reciprocity to find you.
So great, so needed, thank you so much for writing this!
Profound, multiply expert-diagnosed ADHD here. I'm GenX and got my diagnosis and meds at around age 40.
Throughout my life, starting at least in early childhood, I've been interested, engaged, and compelled to *listen* to people's stories in just the way you described. It's apparently baked-in and fundamental to my lifelong conversation with the world.
Resolved: This strongly attracts people who just want to talk at you about themselves.
It can also make you a great interviewer in the John McPhee regard, but will stupidly fuck up your ability to discern between friends or potential friends, and people who are good at imitating friends in order to prop up their personality disorders.
Just saying.
"people who are good at imitating friends in order to prop up their personality disorders" -- not sure if this was meant to be funny but i LAUGHED. anyway yeah so true, i am realizing increasingly there are friends who barely know anything about me but i know their deepest depths and they don't really see a problem with that or notice. it's like im a validation/listening robot and they want to just turn me off when it's convenient and on when it's convenient. Love the john mcphee reference.
A few years ago I heard someoen ask "Are you listening, or are you just waiting for your turn to talk" and that has stuck with me all these years.
Totally agree with everything you wrote.
It feels like people use IRL as a long form of social, where instead of posting that 30 second tiktok and swiping (do people swipe? idk im not on socials lol) - they rant for 30 minutes and then "swipe" to whatever else pops up in their head.
Some part of me also thinks that none of these people know what actually having a friend is like. They have never moved past the fluff bs conversations into the really deep shit. So thats all they know.
the swipe analogy is great, totally on the ball. yeah exactly, the thing about a conversation, a good one anyway, is that there is sort of an uncontrollable flow to it. this is a really good thing. but today's media environment is not about the slow flow of unfolding an idea, a feeling, a joke. it's just swiping manically between sites and videos all showing the biggest joke, punchline, hit, provocative image or idea or line. it promotes social and intellectual ADD essentially. so in real life people just zone out when something no longer holds their interest, and as you say, mentally/emotionally swipe out. im also with you on the deep thing -- i think some of the poor listening skills has to do with an issue with true social intimacy and vulnerability.
I think about these topics all the time!!! I'm middle-aged and even my peers are terrible about asking follow-up questions (or even questions in general) in conversation. Being even just the tiniest bit observant or interested in people let's you learn so much about friends/co-workers/etc.
yes it's sooo crazy bc i feel like an fbi/cia agent, people tell me stuff all the time that they've barely told anyone, but it's literally just because i make space in the convo for them. its annoying to not get it in return for sure.
I come from a similar background and run into this frequently. People used to drain me when they realized i actually listened, but I got good at tactics to stop the emotional vampires.
And as for them not paying attention, my trick is to ALWAYS be ready to just stop talking mid sentence and walk off. I keep every sentence short and to the point and i watch closely.
omg walking off is a POWER MOVE. i have been in some truly horrendous convos where i have wanted to do that. all of these comments have made me feel more empowered to tell people when they're being egregious.
Maybe try pulling out your phone and scrolling if walking off seems too large of a first step. But it hasn't ever caused any problems for me. Probably because these types of people are so ADHD and self absorbed, they really don't notice nor care
LOLOL i know this is serious but it made me laugh. i actually have noticed that. just like they dont listen or hear you, they just wanna talk to get their talk in, they don't rly care to be heard or understood. in fact a lot of these people get annoyed when i try to offer a comment or ask a question, they basically want a numbed out wall to talk to, and they're numbed out walls themselves, so.
Hard relate. I’m GenX, neurodivergent and an only child and I pursued much the same strategy as you did to counteract loneliness…becoming an excellent listener, asking questions, I even read all of Miss Manners’ books (which are excellent and funny) to work on my social skills. And I’ve gotten similar results with people to yours…it’s not restricted to Millennials and younger. Just divorced my boomer husband of 20 years who constantly interrupted me, talked over me, changed the subject to talk about himself and actually asked me to boil my own conversational input down to “bullet points” because he “didn’t need to know all that”. He’s a screen addict, but we both grew up before the internet and didn’t have smartphones until we were in our 30s and 40s, so it’s not like social media “caused” this for him. I’ve managed to raise an awesome kid who has great social skills and I will say that teaching/modeling that to kids is hard work that a lot of parents don’t want to do, or are too busy to do because they’re working 3 jobs to make ends meet. There are lazy parents AND we live in a society that basically gives parents zero social support. I wouldn’t have been able to parent the way I wanted to without being a SAHM, (my ex became less and less interested in parenting or even providing financially for kiddo) but it made me vulnerable to abuse and exploitation in the home. People’s lack of basic social skills today is a complex and multifaceted problem that unfortunately is talked about by blaming it on tech, parents (which really is blaming mothers), pathologizing neurodivergence, blah blah as a single source of the problem. It’s all of the things.
omg your description of a horrible boomer man is so terribly on point. i have a family member just like that -- he talks and talks for ages and loves to mansplain everything to you to death, then turns around and says women are "more verbal" and "chatter" more than men, which is statistically proven to not be true. i remember bringing up the fact that men love nothing more than talking, look at any business meeting that lasts two hours when it could have been an email, or men's obsession with giving speeches, going into politics, making podcasts. he gave me this snarky smile and said something about how that's not the same as women blathering on or whatever. meanwhile EVERY conversation I have ever had with him, he interrupts constantly, finds one thing you've said and then uses it to rant at you about something totally unrelated.
sorry, i think (ironically) your comment set me off on my own rant hahahaha. anyway, i am SO GLAD you left his ass! i wish more men understood they'd be less lonely if they worked on their conversational and listening skills. screen addiction is also real and a major inhibitor for good convo. there's no conversation that will give a person the same easy/cheap dopamine as a phone, but it ultimately leads to isolation and depression.
good for you for teaching your kid that stuff, seriously. i used to teach and you can really, really tell the difference between the kids spending quality time with their families and friends, drawing, reading books in a loving household versus those shunted off to a room with an ipad while everyone in the house ignores each other. it's all of the things for sure. i hope my generation (im 25) is able to look at the mistakes of the last 15 years and raise our kids better.
I have a lot of younger friends (40 and under) and I have a lot of respect for younger millennials and GenZ…your generation is definitely learning from the mistakes of older generations and has so much more kindness and compassion for people. There’s less toxic positivity and pathological individualism, and a sense of responsibility for each other. This is what is needed in our society and I’ll do whatever I can to support it.
“ It’s just a merry-go-round of people waiting for their turn to talk, getting their airtime, then retreating back into their own self-absorption or dissociation from the group.” such a specific and relatable experience and so well put
thank you! I thought I was crazy for noticing this all the time, but it makes me feel at times like hanging out is so pointless. It doesn't happen all the time ofc, but sometimes I am in a group and I'm like why are we here together if we're just not going to respond to one another?